[Also posted here]
The final make-up assessments were (presumably) completed on Friday, February 25, 2011.
In the interest of me not having to publish all the queued comments, I am opening a new thread where you can discuss your experience with the in person assessment this year. What did you think? How do you think you did? How do you think your fellow semifinalists did? What percentage of no-shows did you see?
We should be able to discuss the details of the assessment in much more depth now that the assessments are all complete. I am interested in what you thought of the questions, the subject matter covered, the assessors, the assessment centers, all of it.
Soon I will follow up with two more posts. One will be an open thread for you to discuss the finalist results, which of course are still forthcoming. The other will be an in-depth examination of the process from the assessor's point of view. Let me know if you want any other topics and I will try to accommodate.
I thought it was an interesting day of hurdles. I honestly liked how it was designed, with an individual presentation on a topic and then a group discussion of that topic later on. The assessors were really friendly and professional and the day went smoothly. I'm sure time wouldn't have permitted, but I would have preferred to be able to introduce myself in person, rather than in an essay. Not that the writing was at all difficult, I just felt that I had already written that essay for the online assessment.
ReplyDeleteAs has been said on this site before, I thought everyone in my group was an exceptional candidate and I would be hard-pressed to say why any of us should be selected over another. The SF facility was top notch (beautiful new leed green federal building).
Any ideas of the criteria that we were being graded on in each step would be an interesting (but possibly impossible) post. Thank you for the forum!
Many were concerned about a potential government shut-down. It looks like Congress may buy two more weeks of time: http://gawker.com/#!5772444/the-government-wont-shut-down-for-at-least-two-more-weeks
ReplyDeleteI was at the DC assessment center and was surprised to learn that some of the people in my small group had attended PMF practice sessions. I don't attend a large public policy or law school and felt like this put me at a disadvantage. My school did not offer any guidance at all.
ReplyDeleteDuring the individual presentation I introduced myself and shook hands with the panel. All three of them wrote notes almost continuously during my presentation, and none of them nodded or smiled or gave signals of encouragement. Did anyone else have this experience? They were more engaged during the group exercise. Everyone in my group participated in the presentation--did anyone do the sopokesperon route??
Are we allowed to discuss the topics we were given? I know that there were at least two topics discussed during these assessments: changing the laws on unions and making a law on workplace bullying. I know that giving everyone the same topic would have increased the odds that people who took the assessment late in the process might have known the topic, but I think it would have made the assessment more fair. What do people think? Should there have just been one topic?
It's nice to have these conversations distracting me from thinking about when we'll hear the results!
Or at all: http://www.slate.com/id/2286549/pagenum/all/
ReplyDeleteMy school definitely didn't have practice sessions. That seems a little over the top to me. It explains, though, why about half the people in my group were memorizing pre-written essays before the writing portion. They must have had some knowledge of what it was going to be to be confident enough to begin memorizing!
ReplyDeleteIt would have been nice to have some guidance from my school. As it was, I was stuck looking at foreign service officer oral assessment guides for direction on the group exercise, which was the segment I was most unfamiliar with.
ReplyDeleteUPDATE! This just in from PMF's facebook page: The in-person assessments have now concluded. We look forward to announcing the PMF Class of 2011 finalists around the first of April!"
ReplyDeleteWe all have to wait over a month now!
I did the best on the group assessment. There were 8 of us in the group, and 4 of us really carried the discussion.
ReplyDeleteI was so nervous during the individual assessment. My voice wavered at first and I was a little tongue-tied, but once I got into my talk, I was okay...felt like I might not have used the entire allotted time though...
My written assessment could of been better..time got away from me...
All in all, my assessment was not perfect, but I don't think that I made any major flubs.
PMFellow: A good post could be about the differences in schools programs to prepare students. My adviser basically told me he had no knowledge of what would be on it. Sounds like other schools knew much more than that. Makes sense that a big school would have students reporting back about it. There were only a handful of semi-finalists from my school.
ReplyDeleteOn my assessment day, people seemed to be grouped oddly. One group had close to 10 people (a couple of which were taken from my group), while mine was purposely left with five. I'm not complaining, as it allowed my group to get out of there by 2:30. It just seems odd.
ReplyDeleteI was in the DC center, and everyone in my group was from Massachusetts. Did anyone else get grouped by location like that?
ReplyDeleteMy group at DC came from various areas in the NE (DC, NY area).
ReplyDeleteRe: Criteria: I really doubt I can get enough information about the particular weighting of the assessment criteria and how they determine final scores. Those I've spoken to about their experiences as assessors suggest that even they didn't really know, just that each criterion was judged on a 5 point scale.
ReplyDeleteRe: Topics: I see no harm in discussing the topics now. It is possible that the PMF program office intends to recycle topics, but I think that would be incredibly foolish. Anyway, there is no reason to think that discussing them now will in any way jeopardize the integrity of the assessment process, since the assessments are all concluded.
Re: Preparation: I am a bit concerned that enough information could have made its way back to schools for them to offer preparatory classes. Overall, though, I don't think it's necessarily indicative of a potential bias. So I guess here's a question to all you Spartacuses out there: did you send back tips to your school so they could better prepare semifinalists in the current batch? If so, why?
Re: Group sizes: This one has me the most concerned. It was my understanding that the groups were not supposed to be bigger than 5. I don't know what the rules were for the make-up assessments, because those I've spoken with were only on the regular schedule. 8-10 in a group is excessively large. For those of you in large groups, did you still have only three assessors, or were there more? If only three, how does it make you feel to know that the rule was supposed to be three assessors to a maximum of five semifinalists per group?
When I searched intensively online for help and found out that other universities like University of Chicago-Public Policy, and American were holding In-Person Assessment Practice sessions that were closed off to PMF Finalists from other schools; I called my University's general Career Services office to find out what I should do about being best prepared for this step. I go to a large state University in the South. They put me in contact with my University's undergraduate Truman and Rhodes Scholar advisor who had coached students through this portion of the assessment in the past. She offered outstanding particulars about what they were looking for in the respective parts.
ReplyDeleteRe: group size, I was on a regularly scheduled testing day in DC, not a make-up day. Two of the groups definitely had more than five people, more like 7+.
ReplyDeleteMy session in DC appeared to have 4 groups of 10 each, though some groups were down a person or two. Even though there were 10 in my group, we did the group exercise in two groups of 5 (or 4 in other cases). The same three assessors sat in on both groups of 5 as well as all 10 individual presentations.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that some found their assessors were "friendly." I got the opposite impression of mine - they had their poker faces on the entire time. I found their impassivity (aka "impartiality") and constant writing quite unnerving!
Sorry if I am being dense here, but let's just clarify something. It's one thing to have 10 people at the assessment center with you, but another entirely to be assessed in groups of 10. So which was it? Did anyone actually sit in the group assessment with more than 5 people in the group?
ReplyDeleteMy assessment was in SF during the 2nd week of February. There were 2 panels that day, with 8 of 9 people showing up for the one I was in. (I don't know the number of people who showed up for the other panel).
ReplyDeleteI felt confident about my speaking ability during the oral presentation but one assessor glanced sharply at my hands every time I made the slightest of movements with them. It kind of freaked me out. I'm pretty certain I spoke for less than 5 minutes, but I didn't think there was 5 minutes worth of material to talk about.
My essay could've been better. I wrote a lot of words but it was not necessarily well-structured. My conclusion ended up being about 2 sentences long.
My group consisted of 4 people. I felt that everyone spoke and contributed equally and that we all had something to showcase. We ended up having only one person present our findings to the assessors.
One thing that stood out to me during the group work was that everyone except me was a public policy student. They were looking at the issue from a completely different perspective than I was and they all seemed to think alike. That threw me off a little.
I'm generally my own harshest critic, but I would say that I did about average overall. In hindsight, the only thing I honestly felt that I could have been better at was the essay.
As far as advance details leaking out, I can tell you that I didn't receive any information from either the semi-finalists who assessed before me or my school's career office. Even though my school conducted a prep session, their lack of knowledge of what was going to be on the assessment made the course different enough from the real thing. The only benefit of the prep session was simply to get me in the same frame of mind as I would be on my assessment day, and to have a bit of practice on the group and individual presentations.
As a non-law/policy student I felt a bit at a disadvantage with this type of interview. The 5min position speech and group interview with 4 other law students made it hard for a pub health/medical person to stand out. Perhaps with a different topic than the one I had would have been better, but it was very law student oriented.
ReplyDeleteAs a non-law/policy student I actually felt okay in my group. My small group of 5 was in SF and we were five women - one lawyer, two policy, one mba, and one social worker (me). I actually felt like one of the policy students was at a disadvantage during the group conversation because she was set in one way of thinking. She even used words that only she knew the meaning of, then when asked to clarify what she was talking about, she couldn't bring in the rest of the group. I guess they were terms that public policy students use to analyze, but they definitely were not common knowledge.
ReplyDeleteI think my bigger group of 10 (the people we sat in the waiting room with) was really laid back. We had a ball together laughing, joking, and getting to know one another. We went out to lunch together, too (broken into our two smaller groups of 5). I think this helped our ability to work together during the group interview because there was a really relaxed vibe the entire day. The other group of 10, being held in a different room, was silent the entire day. Only after noticing how very different they were, did we realize our experience was probably different from other groups in the process. I can't imagine how the process would have felt for me if I was stuck in a room of 10 people that didn't get to know one another during a 8-10 hour day.
The individual presentation portion was the most...hard to gage to me. I'm not sure what they expected specifically around the type of analysis or outside information.
Does anyone think you will be disqualified for mentioning the school you attended? I cannot remember if I may have accidentally put the name of my school in the writing portion.
ReplyDelete@Feb 28, 6:28pm, I know the staff stressed for us not to mention any school names in the writing portion to avoid any bias. I think because it was an important direction, they may disqualify you for that reason. Then again, they could just mark you down a few points or just disregard the essay and still consider your other two assessments. I guess we'll all find out soon enough.
ReplyDeleteFor the group presentation, we decided to go the one speaker at the end route. We all decided together during the 25 minutes that it would be better for us to not risk each person going over their allotted 1 minute amount of time to speak. We also didn't want to break up the natural flow of the last 5 minute presentation. Now I'm just worried that our decision will hinder the rest of us from getting high scores for that part. I just wish I knew what the judges were writing about during our presentation. What do you guys think?
ReplyDeleteWe decided to do the everyone-gets-one-minute route. I don't really think it matters either way. My guess is that the presentation at the end is just a formality so we had something to work towards instead of just aimlessly discussing a problem for 20 minutes. I think whatever track you took was fine.
ReplyDeleteI was in Chicago, and there were people there from WI and IL that day. We only had 7 people in the entire group, and were split into a group of 4 and 3 for the presentations. Everyone but one person was either a law or public policy student. It will be hard to wait until April to find out the results!
ReplyDeleteI thought the directions allowed us to mention school names in the writing portion, just not the oral portions. Anyone else?
ReplyDeleteI remember them saying no school names in the written portion either.
ReplyDeleteYeah, it was no school names ever, but I asked during the writing portion and they said it was fine for us to mention our majors and degree names and all that (which is obviously different).
ReplyDeleteIn DC. My entire group (almost) was from Texas. Everyone was much more impressive than I thought coming in--well spoken, kind of type-A, passionate. I didn't think a computer would screen so well. We had a great time. We went walking around DC afterwards, ate lunch together, even hit up a museum. The girls in our group ended up even trading e-mails. I don't think I did well, but who knows.
ReplyDeleteThat is interesting...Texas to DC rather than Texas to Atlanta which is geographically closer.
ReplyDeleteFor the group part of the assessment, how is a person's individual score for this determined?
ReplyDeleteIt is quite obvious that one person couldn't not participate none or very little during the run.
Is it determined solely by our individual performance during it, or by the group's consensus alone, or by an average of the 2?
I just noticed that the PMF website says that finalists will be announced in early March. It's at the bottom of the page.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pmf.opm.gov/FinalistSortByName.aspx
So is going to be early March, or April 1? What are we to believe?
The most recent message on the Facebook page says April. There is no telling when the PMF site was last updated.
ReplyDeleteTo PMFELLOW: Please let me reiterate everyone's thanks to you. This is a much appreciated outlet. I'm sure we're all anxiously awaiting news, and this helps. Also, should I be lucky enough to become a fellow, I already feel closer to you all, which is a nice start :-).
ReplyDeleteI had a DC assessment. Out of a group of ten (two subgroups of five each), everyone showed up. Everyone was from DC. I think we were evenly divided between law students and policy students. I think I did below average on the individual presentation (stuttered quite a bit and was visibly nervous), above average on the essay portion, and about average in the group presentation. My fellow semifinalists were exceptional. The PMF program would be lucky to welcome any of them. Part of our group went out to lunch too, I really liked them all.
Also, I echo what Anonymous at February 28, 2011 1:15 PM said about the assessors. Of the three judges, only one met my gaze. She gave me a pity smile after my individual presentation ... yeah, I had really bombed it. Other than that, no one broke ranks. Even our wrangler got uncomfortable if we asked a question.
I was in the Atlanta assessment. I believe only one person didn't show up out of my group of 10. Our group exercise had 4 people. We were never told that an individual shouldn't speak for more than 1 minute. Was this given in the oral instructions at the beginning?
ReplyDeleteA few reflections on the assessment as experienced in Atlanta:
ReplyDelete-After the writing session, there was an active debate on how it would be graded, y computer or by hand, and no one seemed to have a definite answer. I think this should have been clarified by the assessors since it does actively change the style of writing and content that one might choose to include. Does anyone have definite information on this point?
-During the individual presentation, there was a clock in the room but it was very difficult to judge how much time had passed. I feel this is an area which the centers could easily improve upon next year.
-We had a full group of 10, which split into two groups of 5 for the group presentations. There were no "no shows" in my group.
I had the DC Assessment center. We had a large group of 9, which broke down into 5 + 4, for the group presentation. We had 1 no-show.
ReplyDeleteI think I did really well on the oral presentation, and when we came into the room for the group presentation, I was seated closest near the door, in what would could be called a #1 position. Through the course of the group discussion, it became readily apparent that my cohorts' comfortability and facility in public speaking wasn't equal. The person next to me was solid, the person next to him/her was okay, and the person next to him/her kinda struggled. I started thinking that they may have placed us in order of ranking for the group based on oral presentation. Any thoughts?
Also, we used the "everyone take a minute" approach, which worked more or less. We basically divided up the presentation based on key points and everyone said their part.
Finally, I was frustrated a bit b/c seemingly the group wanted to debate the topic endlessly without getting to the organization and execution of the presentation, which was the objective of the whole exercise. It seemed like they wanted to debate for 22 minutes then decide how to organize the presentation and decide who will discuss which topic in 3 mins. Fortunately, this didn't happen. Because that would have been a recipe for disaster for us all.
Re: Preparation
ReplyDeleteThe Career Services at my law school in DC had a former PMF fellow talk about his experience a couple days before the in-person assessment began.
Apparently, he knew that the format had changed and he discussed his experience a few years ago, and it turned out to be more or less what we were going to experience. It was a great heads-up on the group presentation b/c when I did my individual, I knew going in, we would have the same topic again.
Although, when he went through, there was a structured interview, and the individual presentation apparently replaced this.
They changed the PMF site now to reflect the April 1st notification date. I wonder how the later notification will influence the whole process. Considering the high caliber of the semifinalists, I'm sure a good handful may have other job offers by then.
ReplyDeleteAs for my assessors, two of them were really nice during the individual presentation and gave me encouraging smiles and eye-contact. I was short on time though, and when I finished the lead assessor asked somewhat skeptically, "Is that it?".
Our topic had to do with supporting a new legislation that would protect consumers information on-line. Some of the law and policy students in my group definitely had an edge with that topic and kept referencing past consumer protection legislation...a topic which has nothing to do with my graduate degree or concentration.
Everyone I met was very friendly and well qualified, and I wish everyone the best of luck!
Advantage: Lawyers
ReplyDeleteIn case anyone was wondering, this assessment plays to the strength of law-students. The scenario is like a fact-pattern for an exam or a case.
The timed-portions, both the individual presentations and essays, are part of the "high-stakes" testing culture of law school.
The oral presentation is a toss-up. Great writing skills do not necessarily translate into public speaking proficiency. The playing field is more level in this respect, but if a law student is proficient at public speaking, there's a definite advantage.
@ March 1, 2011 12:19 PM-- we were told in Chicago that the seating order for the group discussion was determined by the order in which we'd gone for the individual presentations. Not sure if that was SOP for all of the testing centers, though.
ReplyDeleteIf I remember correctly, in SF we just walked into the room and took a seat, they then handed us the name-placards.
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ReplyDeleteLogically, for the in-person assessment with so much at stake I would have a hard time believing the essay portion would be graded strictly with a computer. This may have been the case for the computer assessment candidates took prior to this assessment.
ReplyDeleteThe main tenets they are looking for were "written communication" and "service motivation". A computer can spot key words, spelling, and word count but obviously is fully capable of determining more specific incisions, colloquial formats, etc.
Check out: http://www.knowledge-technologies.com/papers/IEA_FAQ.html
ReplyDeleteQ: Does IEA use keywords in its evaluation?
A: A common misconception is that IEA scores by recognizing keywords. It does not. If two or more different terms accurately describe a concept, IEA will recognize either or both and score them equally as well. For example, IEA measures
"Understanding is very important when you read something you want to know about"
as very similar in meaning to
"Comprehending's essential"
even though the sentences share no words in common. A keyword based approach to similarity would find nothing in common between these two sentences.
Q: How does the computer recognize a good essay?
A: The Intelligent Essay Assessor uses the KAT engine to assess the content of an essay, as well as more mechanical aspects of writing. When a student submits an essay for scoring, the system immediately measures the meaning of the essay. It then compares the essay to the training essays, looking for similarities, and assigns a holistic score in part by placing the essay in a category with the most similar training essays. Analytic scoring occurs in much the same way. For each trait, the system assesses that trait in the student essay, compares it to the training essays, and then categorizes the trait in question.
Q: How does IEA scoring compare to the way teachers grade writing?
A: IEA's approach mirrors the way teachers grade essays. For example, when teachers evaluate a student's essay, they look for characteristics that identify an essay as an A or C paper. Their expectations are likely based on their previous experience as a grader and on criteria for the assignment in question. In other words, teachers search for a match between the essay itself and the criteria for a particular grade or score. The Intelligent Essay Assessor is trained to mimic this process.
Q: How does IEA score essays with highly unusual writing styles?
A: An essay with a highly unique writing style or unusual construction may receive an advisory message along with a score. If an essay is off-topic, written in a language other than English, too brief or too repetitive, a written refusal to write, or otherwise incomprehensible, a student will receive an advisory and no score. These advisory messages ask the student to discuss the essay and all feedback with his or her teacher to ensure an appropriate evaluation of the writing.
They very much can discern meaning, without using keywords.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.knowledge-technologies.com/papers/IEA_FAQ.html
The essay portions of examinations of both MCAT and LSAT graded by 1 of both human and computer.
ReplyDeleteNot sure what that may mean for this test.
Anonymous @ 2:34, if they are using such a program, then I am disappointed they are giving us such late notice (in April!). I would hope that computer grading would produce faster results.
ReplyDeleteI was placed in a group of four and was surprised how everybody naturally fell into their role. We had two take one side of the argument, two take the other (none of this was planned), and ended up working out a compromise between the two. I was fortunate to be placed with four people with strong opinions, but who were still willing to listen to the others and make some compromises.
ReplyDeleteWe debated for a good 20 minutes before getting down to the organization of our proposal. Thankfully one of the people in our group was taking notes the whole time and this made it easy to write the outline. I then volunteered to present, but I don't think it really matters too much for me individually.
By allowing us to sit down when we presented, I thought they made the individual presentation much easier. I was able to place my notes at my side on the table, and glance down when I needed to. The evaluators in my room did not smile, and I was only able to make eye contact with one of them.
We had a fair share of law students, but also people studying policy and international relations. I was surprised by the few business students that I met.
I'm pretty sure the written portion is graded by a person-- they explained to us that we shouldn't include our school name because the assessor might be biased...
ReplyDeleteI'd imagine that part of the delay in announcing finalists is due to the budget. Since agencies don't know their funding for the upcoming fiscal year, they don't know how many PMFs they can hire. I recently spoke with a director at an agency I'd be interested in if selected as a finalist, who confirmed that they won't decide on the # of PMFs until they have their budget.
ReplyDeletePerhaps OMB is waiting for an approximation of the # of PMFs that will be hired, so they can determine the # of finalists to select. Even once all the scoring is complete (I imagine each semifinalist performance is quantified based on a scoring system), they need to determine a cut-off point so all PMFs above that point are finalists. If there are less spots available, obviously that cut-off point is higher.
With so many in Washington pushing for less government and reductions in the the size of federal agencies, this can't bold well for the number of PMF hires. If agencies are not going to hire as many PMFs, it might make sense to reduce the # of finalists, as opposed to selecting a large number of finalists that then results in increased competition amongst finalists for a limited number of PMF opportunities. Hypothetically, OPM and agencies might prefer to have 500 finalists competing for 300 slots, than 900 finalists competing for those same 300 slots.
In either case, the job fair definitely cannot occur until the budget is determined and agencies know how many PMFs they want, so delays in the PMF process this year are to be expected one way or another.
It will be interesting to see how the PMF process will pan out with the budget concerns. Good luck to all of us. As someone previously mentioned, it will also be interesting to see how many chosen finalists will already have job offers by April.
ReplyDeleteI was in Chicago for the assessment and there were two groups of 5 people. Four out of the 10 showed up late (like 30-40 minutes late) and the assessors/administrators didn't even care, which annoyed me.
ReplyDeleteI like the idea of in-person assessments, but taking 9 hours to assess 10 people is absurd, especially when 7 of those hours are spent sitting in the break room.
I fear that the A-Holes in Congress will continue to grandstand on the budget all Spring and agencies will be very reluctant to make many PMF hires.
But good luck to those who get to be Finalists!
There must be some kind of point penalty for arriving that late, unless it was weather related... the emails told us to get there a half hour early!
ReplyDeleteThis is a link to a PMF Interview Scoring Sheet. Obviously, they did not conduct interviews this year -- but, I think that there is relevance in the mention of ranking. Based on this scoring sheet, the panels are obligated to rank each of the candidates they reviewed that day, by consensus.
ReplyDeletehttps://ccrod.cancer.gov/confluence/download/attachments/54427778/Interviewing+Tips.docx?version=1&modificationDate=1279636632660
@Mar 2, 2011 1:25PM
ReplyDeleteThe scoring sheet is insightful to see how NCI interviews its PMF applicants,however, this does not lend insight into how the PMF panel actually scores the candidates. It seems likely that the fed govt uses a quantitive metric to rate candidates and it is quite likely a similar process is in place. Although, I wouldn't extrapolate from what NCI does as a basis for determining how the PMF program operates.
For the essay portion, I may have not have gotten a date down that corresponded to every one of my honors and accomplishments but the flow of the narration gave the reader a good idea of their sequence.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, I may have missed the hyphen in a few standardized American hyphenizations such as "service-oriented" etc.
Honors and accomplishments? Maybe I had a different essay topic, but I don't think they were looking for a narration of your resume.
ReplyDeleteEssay topic my day was Why We Wanted to be a PMF and to note honors/accomplishments/employment experiences that demonstrated a commitment to public service.
ReplyDeleteRe: seating for group assessment. San Francisco-We were seated according to our candidate number, which were assigned via drawing numbers out of a hat first thing in the morning.
ReplyDeleteRe: sitting vs. standing. Many people have hidden disabilities or other physical impairments. I think that they gave us the option so as not to discriminate against someone who may not be able to comfortably stand and shouldn't have to declare that.
If the worst became true and the OPM did in fact select several hundred less finalists this year, wouldn't that create a problem with the lack of academic or trade "disciplines" in the pool of which agencies could pick finalists from
ReplyDeleteThe biggest problem I see with selecting fewer finalists is that the government is loaded with people who are due to retire in the next few years. I'm sure that many of those employees will even retire earlier than planned now that there's a wage freeze.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of the circumstances, i don't think last year's finalist total of 885 will go down this year if at all. This year we have 400 more nominations than last year, the Cancellation of the Federal Career Intern Program, and a dramatically increased number of projected federal service retirements.
ReplyDeleteThere are still two branches of the government with the President and Democratic Senate that will likely bring some form of mediation to any Republican House efforts to curb federal hiring.
I agree @March 3, 2011 4:33 PM since we haven't been vetted by skill area/interest at all, the more of us they have, the better the chances of good matches. I heard that one of the reasons they reinstated the in-person assessment is that agencies had been complaining about low calibre PMFs, this says to me that they will have a lot of finalists, even if not that many positions open up (here's rooting for the house budget to get toppled!).
ReplyDeleteHas anyone come across a listing of placed PMF fellows and their geographic placement? For example, if someone wanted to know if any agencies regularly (or occasionally) placed a PMF in a particular state is there any way to find this information out (besides contacting every agency and asking the question)?
ReplyDelete@March 4, 2001 4:34 AM. I'm interested in finding out that information, as well. I know most are in DC, but curious which agencies (and where) hire PMFs beyond DC.
ReplyDeleteThe best (and really only) way to know how agencies hire PMFs outside DC is to look at the Projected Position System. The sidebar of this site used to contain PPS listings, but the feed has died and I haven't had the time to figure out why. Anyway, while 85% of federal jobs are outside DC, the policy, planning, and oversight work are skewed heavily toward DC, so your chances of finding a PMF appointment outside DC are much lower than an average job seeker's chances.
ReplyDeletePMFellow-what is your opinion about the number of finalists that will be selected this year considering the current economic climate? I was also wondering if you had any insight into whether or not federal agencies might wait until the 2012 budget is passed to make employment offers.
ReplyDeleteRe: Writing portion
ReplyDeleteI continued to be confused by the grading for this section. If they wanted a writing sample, they could have given a better sample. If they wanted a means of selection based on experience, why not just request resumes with school names redacted? The current set up seems to provide the worst of both worlds.
Re: Location
One of the candidates whose school had been briefed by a PMF claimed that only 15% of PMF positions were actually in DC. I find this figure very low, however.
My career advisor told me that one of the points of the group excercise was to watch us work in a group. I feel like they didn't put much emphasis on the "presentation" part at the end. My school didn't have any pmf practic sessions either. I thought the people at the Atlanta assessment told us we would find out about our status late February to Mid-March...Did anyone else hear this?
ReplyDeleteI've taken a look at the finalist city placement list for the past few years.
ReplyDeleteMost major metro areas with a total metropolitan population of above say 2 million people have consistently been a PMF city.
I.E.--cities such as SF, Seattle, LA, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Denver, Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, NYC, Philadelphia, Boston, have all been a consistent PMF city the past several years.
Other more rural placements include border areas, natural park areas, etc where there may be a need for management officials
What the heck was the point of leaving the schools out of the assessment writing and oral presentations when at the San Francisco center they asked us to state the name of the city we were currently living in?? We all have to be current students or recently graduated to be PMF eligible so odds are we're living in the city where the school is located or so common sense would say. Here are the city names that came out for my group of 10: Corvallis, OR; Eugene, OR; Irvine, CA; Las Vegas, NV; Austin, TX. Seriously, there's only one main school from each of those cities that has graduate programs and therefore qualifies for the PMF program.
ReplyDeleteAt some point after writing the essay, while thinking about the instructions to exclude school name but allowing us to introduce ourselves in the manner, all I could think about how ridiculous this scenario was... especially when one of the judges on the panels looked at the other and nodded when somebody dropped Corvallis, OR. So much for not including school names and removing objectivity.
So, in regards to being disqualified for mentioning your school as per repeated directions as above commenters mentioned, I would hope they don't. I can see if they do because it would be seen as not following basic directions. However, like I said, they introduced the subjectivity and bias in the first five minutes of our assessment by asking our names and where we were from. Only cities like New York, Chicago, D.C. leave any mystery as they have multiple schools with graduate programs.
Agreed. Imagine if someone, replying to where they live said Cambridge, Ithaca, New Haven, or Princeton...dead giveaway.
ReplyDeleteNo questions were asked about where we were from on my day in DC. It only came up in the waiting room among other PMF hopefuls.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI feel it's ridiculous and unfair that some schools had prep time and advising for these assessments. That means whoever was taught from past candidates or advisers familiar with the program had a huge advantage. That doesn't necessarily mean they're selecting the best candidate. It just means they're selecting those who were best at essentially cheating the system and prepping for longer than others for a formulaic assessment. Anyone can write an essay and memorize it. The point was supposed to be thinking on your feet and how you respond to pressure situations.
ReplyDeleteI feel like since I sought out this program myself (and was the first to make it as a semi-finalist) and nobody at my university was running programs to encourage application it shows more ambition than somebody told, "Apply for this. This is what the assessments are and how you get it." No hard feelings for those who had the extra prep. All any of us can do is wait. However, the PMF program should do a better job of either announcing the question ahead of time or changing it year to year to make sure it's actually a level playing field. Candidates shouldn't be punished not going to a bigger school that had assessment practice.
I agree.
ReplyDeleteI can't speak for the schools who have prominent advising for the assessments, but the prep session at my school proved to be irrelevant. They didn't know the specifics of what we were going to be given and what we were going to be graded on. The group exercise prep was especially disappointing because to this day, I have no idea what they were looking for in that test besides good teamwork. In addition, neither my school nor the students who assessed before me ever gave me any advance tips as to what was on the assessment.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Anonymous @5:13. Preparation is not "cheating the system" in any way. Yes, it is beneficial for current applicants if schools to hold prep sessions with former PMFs. No, they do not have any "illegal data" regarding what questions will be asked or the definitive format. They can only speak on their own experiences.
ReplyDeleteOur question was on consumer protection legislation and online advertisers. While the lawyers in our group brought a unique perspective, so did everyone else.
Bummer we won't find out til April-- good luck everyone! And thanks PMFellow for all the great info.
I'd have to disagree @March 6, 2011 9:41 AM, I too had people memorizing essays at my assessment. The prep at my school was basically useless, definitely didn't leave me confident enough about the question to memorize an essay!! Prep is just fine, giving students enough info that they are confident enough to memorize an essay is not.
ReplyDeleteIf you hadn't written that essay a dozen times in your sleep by this point, I'd say you had just failed to prepare.
ReplyDeleteI attended the DC site and think, despite an attempt at uniformity in grading, there were significant assessor differences. On the day I attended, there were four groups of 10, with each group of 10 split into sub-groups of 5 for the group presentation. Several groups were finished before our group of 10 had even begun our afternoon group session. There were differences in schedule, but our group basically thought we had a group of assessors who were going over things in detail, while other groups were done and headed home (there was expected inclement weather for later that day). Do we know if this affected our scores? I'm not sure. But it does raise the point that teams of assessors may not grade things/people exactly the same from group to group, or from day to day - it is a human system.
ReplyDelete@March 6, 2011 8:25 PM I had, of course. Its just that when you are sitting in the room to write, the essay that comes out will be much better if you had pre-written it recently and been reviewing it until the moment they came to get you. It is not a matter of essay difficulty, it was easy. Or a matter of whether mine was good, I think it was. It more has to do with the fact that we are graded against each other. If it was just a straight letter grade then I wouldn't care, it is the fact that even a slightly better essay that someone begin immediately to write without thought, which is longer and has been proof-read more will put someone over the edge.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how anyone can come to the conclusion that semifinalists are all graded against one another. With four testing sites and probably hundreds of assessors over a month-long assessment process, it seems incredibly unlikely that comparing semifinalists against one another would produce meaningful results or even be possible. This goes for the writing assessment as well. Doubtless there is a small army of assessors wading through them all and assigning an objective score, or a score that is as objective as possible, based on unambiguous criteria. Even if there are many fewer writing assessors, such a comparison would require a pretty intensive scoring process and superhuman concentration and communication skills between assessors.
ReplyDeleteYou'll only be "compared" to one another once each final score has been tallied. At that point, a cutoff point will be determined, and anyone above the line moves on as a finalist.
As an aside, I thought it might be interesting to point out that, according to an unnamed but reputable source, it took on the order of 1000 people serving as assessors and support staff to pull off the in-person assessment. That's a lot of moving parts if you ask me.
I don't think the essay needs to have been written flawlessly; rather, I think assessors are looking for signs of achievement, or as they labelled it, "motivation to serve".
ReplyDeleteSeriously, a good predictor of future success is prior success, so one might reason that a record of service or achievement is something being weighted more than if you spelled everything correctly, or placed a semicolon where needed, etc.
Further, while we know what they were looking for in the various components of the assessment, i.e., motivation to serve or oral communication, no where have these been defined or really clearly operationalized. We're all working on assumptions.
Does anyone know what the typical time frame is for accepted PMFs? Just curious - IF you were accepted and IF you found a placement right away, does everyone have individual start dates or do you have to wait for an orientation session in Sept/Oct?
ReplyDeleteI find it telling that even at this late point there is still considerable debate on how semi-finalists are being assessed. Questions like how the essays are being graded and what criteria are being used are issues which could have been easily answered by OPM prior to the test dates, resulting in considerably less confusion (and stress) in the process. Simularly, while schools have a right to brief their candidates, the playing field could have been made a little more even through more thorough materials on the OPM website. I urge OPM to be more transparent in the future and avoid unnecessary secrecy.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly does not seem to be a transparent or fair test process.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet you still applied ;). I think if it were more transparent, there would be more gaming. Bottom line, seems reasonable enough.
ReplyDelete"You'll only be "compared" to one another once each final score has been tallied. At that point, a cutoff point will be determined, and anyone above the line moves on as a finalist."
ReplyDelete@PMFfellow, that is exactly the point. This is tantamount to a curved test, only so many will advance on. While the criteria used may be objective to grade portions of the assessment, and while they are not actively comparing us against each other (we assume) any bump in a candidate's score brought on by extra preparation from one's school will result in a higher likelihood of the candidate being selected. So, yes, they are not comparing us directly, but we are competing, so the difference is not huge.
Hi Everyone,
ReplyDeleteA few comments:
1. My school had a prep session, and I think some of you are blowing it out of proportion. We did not do anything with a writing section in ours, but many students (not just those with a prep session) were going over their resumes and essays they thought could be on it-- not memorizing the specific answer to the specific PMF prompt. We had a group prep, where we tried to solve a prompt as a group, just to get a feel for what it was like. However, I think if you were in a group with someone who had this type of prep, you would ALL be advantaged, not just the person who attended, because, if done right, the group would have a better result. The individual prep, we did have this, but don't you do presentations in class ever? I've had quite a few classes or midterms that were structured in this exact way, so it wasn't anything new.
2. My school did not send out ANY type of help from people currently going through the process; that would be poor judgment by the school.
3. I thought the writing prompt was the most difficult, because you really had to self-edit on the accomplishments and make sure it was a coherent essay. I also thought answering all parts of the question will be important. It had asked the amount of time, length of time, responsibilities, etc. So, making sure to address all of those would be important.
4. I think it is terrible that we won't find out until April, because the job fair is so soon after. Getting work/school off and buying a ticket last minute are really difficult and expensive. I hope they will change this in the future.
5. I agree about people wanting to game the test if they listed more of the criteria. To be honest, I don't know how most companies hire, but they still seem to get talent... we'll just have to wait.
6. The people in Chicago were great candidates and super fun. We only had 8 show up our day, but all were smart and talented.
I'm a veteran and I want to apply in Oct., with the 5 points given to us does that mean a finalist spot (assuming I make it) is mine to lose, or are the grading points so high the 5 points have no real impact to the final score? Any idea?
ReplyDeleteRe: Vets Preference
ReplyDeleteNot sure, about the scoring scale, however, the 5-point preference is applied at each level (i.e. the semi-finalist, and finalist stage). Not sure, how much it helps, but given the Administration's push to hire more vets, I'm guessing the odds are pretty good. I forget the # of vets last cycle, and I'm interested to see if the # increases or declines. Whatever the case, I just hope my 5 points puts me over the top. Time will tell.
A finalist spot is not yours to lose. 9000 people applied this year. 5 points will help but you better put your best foot forward.
ReplyDeleteI'm somewhat surprised that they would take it in to consideration, although I suppose given that it's the federal government hiring, it maybe is part of an overall schema. Still, I get that it would be considered for the initial nominee part, but I fail to see how it would find the most meritorious candidates for an online test or for the assessments. For the final step sure, it is on your resume and it looks good, but just seems awkward to not necessarily select the best candidates.
ReplyDeleteTo quickly answer the last respondent, vet preference points are only added after the candidate has met the cut-off score. The vet has to first prove their merit by successfully navigating the assessment process and only then are given an extra bump.
ReplyDeleteI don't see how this process does not necessarily select the best candidates, and if anything, the process shows objectivity in the initial finalist selection.
It is taken into account separately in all of the assessments. It doesn't sound to me like it is overwhelming, though -- you would still have to perform well. That is just my guess, however.
ReplyDeletemy school's career advisor just told me today that OPM had picked 750 finalists, although they have not released the names yet. So less than 50% of the semifinalists moved on.
ReplyDeleteThe site now says that the site is down as they are preparing to post the list of finalists!
ReplyDeleteThis presentation indicates they will select 750-800 finalists: http://www.pmf.gov/media/35090/feb_2011_pmfc_slides_02-24-11_final.pdf
ReplyDeleteGood luck everyone!!!
I'm not sure what any of you are looking at. Is it the Facebook page? The pmf site doesn't reflect any updates.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pmf.opm.gov/FFinalist.aspx
ReplyDeleteI actually got this page via a Google search. I have not been able to find it via the website.
That could have been down for a while. Their public site says on or about April 1.
ReplyDeleteAgreed. There are lots of pages the PMF program seems to have lost.
ReplyDeletewhy would OPM tell someone's school advisor about the number of people chosen before notifying candidates?
ReplyDelete@March 9, 2011 6:52 PM:
ReplyDeleteI'm sure OPM didn't directly/officially contact the school just to share that information. Assuming the information is correct, the school likely had an inside contact at OPM and the information leaked out.
Furthermore, looking at:
http://pmf.gov/becomeapmf/index.aspx
The timeline now states that OPM intends to notify finalists in "Mid to Late-March 2011." If in fact OPM has already selected the finalists, then the mid-March timeline could be plausible.
One of the things that has always bugged me about government sites in particular is how they change very important details on a page but say nothing about it, as if it's current form is the way it has always been. Does anyone else get annoyed by that?
ReplyDeleteA number of things are making me feel like the finalist announcement is going to come before April 1st:
ReplyDelete-A contact I have in an agency I'm interested in working for recently reached out to me and asked if I had heard the results yet. Although, this could be frustration on the part those looking for PMFs that the process is dragging on...
-I assume that most of the work remaining after the in-person assessments is the scoring of the writing portion. If there were 1,500 essays and it takes 10-15 min. per essay to score them, the process could easily be completed in two weeks.
-The slideshow notes from last Feb. that someone posted above seem to imply that movement would be coming soon.
Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but to me all signs seems to be point to an earlier announcement rather than a later one.
I don't think they'll announce it for awhile, or at least until March 18 because of the budget uncertainties.
ReplyDeleteOn the PMF Facebook page someone asked the question "Are we still looking at an April 1 announcement date?" and PMF responded on March 8 at 7:35 pm "Yes, somewhere around that time."
Now, that's a very vague answer but I think that even if they have the list compiled they are going to keep it to themselves for awhile.
Also, if they don't announce until late March/early April that places the job fair in late April/early May which interferes with many students finals. That would be terrible timing for the job fair.
ReplyDeleteYesterday was the deadline for bids for the venue for the job fair.
ReplyDeleteSee https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=82c979ac98989d87d5018dec1ea4db02&tab=core&_cview=0
Note the following quotes:
"The U.S. Office of Personnel Management's (OPM) Presidential Management Fellows (PMF) Program is requesting a contractor to provide conference rental space to host its annual Job Fair and to conduct a Graduation Ceremony. This requirement is for an 110,000 square foot exhibit hall, 2 large ballrooms, and 4 rooms in Washington, DC, during a 3 day period in April or May 2011. A description of the events and requirements are provided below."
"The preferred dates of the conference shall be 3 consecutive days during the workweek in mid/late-April 2011 or potentially in early-May 2011. The preferred workdays are either: Monday-Wednesday, Tuesday-Thursday, or Wednesday-Friday, avoiding weekends."
"Offerors are invited to submit their quotations to OPM-Contracting Group in response to this notice no later than 12:00 PM Eastern Standard Time (EST), Wednesday, March 9, 2011."
The budget isn't going to have much to do with OPM's decision to release the Finalists List.
ReplyDeleteOPM is providing a pool for the agencies to choose from. They have no obligation to hire any finalists. Besides, they are operating under a CR and because the program hasn't changed much from last year the funding should be about the same.
Also, looks like their is going to be another CR at the end of next week ... still no budget.
Does anyone know how PMFs are funded?
ReplyDeleteI have been reading the info for agencies on the PMF.gov site and have not been able to figure out if PMFs are are paid by the agencies out of their general funds or if there is a special pot of money set aside for the program. What I have found is that there is a $6000-$7000 reimbursement that the agencies pay to OPM for recruiting/screening us. In these days of tight budgets, I wonder how many agencies are going to be excited to hire PMFs (basically employees they have to have for 2-years) or anyone for that matter if they have to pay for it out of their own funds. On the other hand, if they are getting a helping hand from OPM then I'm sure they will be climbing all over each other to get already screened recruits, especially with FCIP gone.
Any thoughts?
@ March 10, 2011 5:05 AM
ReplyDeleteSo true. How can OPM expect finalists to attend a 3 day job fair during their final exams and/or end of semester when final papers/theses/dissertations will be due? This seems like a serious error in planning. I also don't see the need to have the job fair then if placements do not begin until August/September.
I don't think veterans get 5 points at the finalist stage. I am a veteran and it was my understanding that the 5 points only impacts the first semi-finalist stage (the online assessment). This is consistent with most federal jobs--the five points can help a veteran get on the best qualified list (or in this case the semi-finalist list), but after that it is an equal playing field for the rest of the assessment. I have worked in HR for a large federal agency and this has always been the case from my experience
ReplyDelete@March 10, 2011 1:46 PM:
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding, PMFs are paid from the general funds of whichever agency hires them.
@March 10, 2011 5:05 AM:
According to http://pmf.gov/becomeapmf/index.aspx ,the job fair will be in "Mid to Late-April 2011." Also, while many PMFs do not start until August/September (as you mentioned), there are some that do start substantially earlier than that so not delaying the job fair does have a purpose. Furthermore, pushing back the job fair could in turn delay potential start dates for many PMFs. Therefore, with many finishing graduate school in May and needing a job to support themselves, a delay in their start date could cause them serious financial distress until they are able to start their fellowship.
Re: finalists being announced soon: The "Current Finalists" page has also been updated for the class of 2011 http://www.pmf.gov/become-a-pmf/current-finalists.aspx ("Congratulations if you successfully passed the assessments and achieved finalist status!
ReplyDeleteAs an applicant during the 2011 recruitment cycle, you are considered part of the Class of 2011...")
I can't imagine that they would update this information so far in advance of announcing finalists. Mid-March is not inconceivable.
However, the page that allows you to sort finalists by various factors still says April 1: https://www.pmf.opm.gov/FinalistSortByName.aspx (Finalist information for the Class of 2011 will be posted here on or around April 1, 2011.)
ReplyDeleteRe: Vet Preference
ReplyDeleteVets get preference in the nomination, PMF selection, agency appointment processes.
"Preference eligibles receive three-tiered consideration during the PMF process. The first tier occurs during the nomination process. The second tier occurs during the OPM application
review and rating process, and the third tier occurs during the agency appointment process.
Veterans' preference is applied in assessment in accordance with sections 302.201, 302.302, and 302.304 of part 302 of title 5, Code of Federal Regulations."
https://www.pmf.opm.gov/Documents/VET_PREF_PROCEDURES.pdf
@March 10, 2011 2:36 PM It is getting pretty close to Mid-March.
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that they are hedging their bets with the April 1 estimate. They have to decrease expectations given the possibility that the gov gets shut down. Barring a shutdown, however, they are working full-time on this--I bet they get it done in their original estimated mid-late March.
Here is the listing for a contract to host the PMF job fair (warning: 30 page pdf): https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=215a93b0e3f3e84f40a42a275fcfcb0d . It estimates that there will be 720 finalists.
ReplyDeleteI think they might not expect all finalists to attend.
ReplyDeleteOh please please do not have the job fair in May.
ReplyDelete@March 10 2:36 pm: I cannot read your double negatives!
@March 10, 2011 7:10 PM:
ReplyDeleteAccording to http://pmf.gov/becomeapmf/index.aspx the job fair will be in "Mid to Late-April 2011 (NOT in May as you fear).
Also, while I did not write the double-negative post you reference, really, a potential PMF should at a minimum be able to comprehend that. He/she is saying that OPM's recent update of the PMF "Current Finalist" webpage suggests that an announcement is likely to happen sooner (mid-March) rather than later (early April).
Typically not all the PMF candidates show up to D.C. either for money reasons, the schedule interviews outside of the job fair, or they end up dropping out before the fair. I am sure OPM accounts for that number, and they will accept plenty more than 720 people.
ReplyDeleteQuestion for veterans: How can you verify whether OPM granted your 5-point preference. If I recall correctly, we had to upload our DD-214 during the application process. At the bottom of OPM's email in November, notifying me that I was nominated, it noted "Veterans Preference: 5-point-TP (not adjudicated)." Does anyone know what that means? For instance, does it have to be adjudicated before you receive the 5 points?
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Re: Vet Preference
ReplyDeleteI don't know if my 5pt preference was adjudicated as I don't have the November email.
Do note, however, that not all military experience satisfies the Veteran's Preference. There is a statutory requirement that a vet must fufill to be eligible for the preference. The service must have been during a specific time period (i.e. war time) or resulted in the acquisition of certain medals or awards (i.e. expeditionary medal, etc). Sadly, not all service qualifies and the nature of the discharge matters as well. Anything other than honorable may not qualify for the preference.
@March 110, 2011 7:13 AM: I just went back and checked my e-mail from November and it indicated that my Veterans Points were adjudicated.
ReplyDeleteNot sure where that leaves you... but mine definitely indicated it was adjudicated. Hope that helps.
Ugh...I hope the list gets released soon!! I don't know how much longer I can take it.
ReplyDeleteWill we get e-mails before they put the list online, similar to the semi-finalist announcements?
That is interesting your email said "adjudicated." My service definitely qualifies, but I am not sure why some vets received "adjudicated" and others "not adjudicated." Oh well, it probably doesn't really matter at this point.
ReplyDeleteI looked at my November email and it indicated that my vet preference was not adjudicated. This is consistent with how other federal agencies have approached my applications in the past. My points have always been added later on in the process and not at the beginning. I wouldn't worry about it.
ReplyDeleteWould a semi-finalist currently in possession of two post-terminal degrees like a JD/MBA be given a point boost or some sort of advantage in this stage given that this information would only have been noted in the essay portion of the oral assessment?
ReplyDeleteIf OPM is actively seeking out dual JD-MBAs, then maybe your application would get flagged but I wouldn't count on it. Otherwise, I doubt you will get a point boost or some sort of other advantage. Getting a graduate degree (whether its 1 or 2 of them) is simply an eligibility factor. Once your eligibility has been verified, the only things that matter as far as becoming a PMF finalist are veteran preferences and your online and in-person assessment performances. If you make it to the finalist stage, your dual graduate degrees may be of some advantage in distinguishing yourself from other finalists and landing a PMF position. However, at this current semi-finalist stage, you will not get a point boost simply for having dual graduate degrees.
ReplyDeletePoint boosts for everyone!!!
ReplyDeleteDo I get a point boost because I'm so extra-super-duper-special?
ReplyDeleteHaha, love the last two comments. Gold stars!
ReplyDelete@March 11, 2011 6:25 PM.... YES!!!
ReplyDeleteThe 2009 contract to host the PMF job fair estimated 600 attendees out of 786 finalists that year:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dgmarket.com/tenders/np-notice.do~3378336
Couldn't find the 2010 contract :( So if they are expecting a similar percentage to attend this year, that would put the number of finalists at over 900, but OPM might have upped their estimates of what percentage of finalists attend since 2009.
March 11, 2011 6:25PM...the reason I brought up that prior comment is because the day I was assessed I counted at least 4 JD/MBA or JD/MPA people. I did not realize the competition was going to be that stiff. I do not possess the 2 post-terminal degrees.
ReplyDeleteUse some wisdom before posting such an egregious reply.
I am wondering if we are assessed only on our performance at the in-person assessment, or if OPM has created a candidate profile for each of us that includes skills (from our resume), performance on the online assessment, and performance on the in-person assessment. Perhaps they even take our degrees/agency hiring needs into consideration. Any thoughts?
ReplyDelete@9:42... Don't pay @6:25 any attention. I still think you're special.
ReplyDeleteDid many of you incorporate historical quotes into either your presentation or essay statement?
ReplyDelete@11:02... Damn!! I didn't realize everyone knew about the secret memo from OPM detailing that finalists are chosen by how well they incorporate historical quotes into their presentation and essay. No fair!!!
ReplyDeleteAnyone know when the job fair will be?
ReplyDelete@ 11:02 I'm sure if you did they were suitably impressed...
Venue
ReplyDeleteThe Job Fair is typically held in the Washington, DC, metropolitan area, within 3-4 weeks after finalists are selected. This event is by invitation only for recently selected finalists and participating agency representatives.
// this should mean you are safe to make plans until the 3rd week of April right?
Does citing passages from the unabomber manifesto count as a historical quote? In case, yes!
ReplyDeleteIn all seriousness, when you're reviewing 1530 people, cleverness gets old quick. They're looking for accomplishment, leadership and capability. It's not a magic formula or something you cram for. You displayed it or you didn't. So until we learn the results, good luck everyone. (And good luck afterwards, too.)
We seem to have gotten away from discussing the actual assessment. We only viewed each other's work in the group assessment...did anyone witness particularly good or bad performance? How did your groups tackle the task at hand? Did everyone come to consensus?
ReplyDelete@ Vets who received non-adjudicated. For any federal job you have to submit a SF-15 to get adjudicated veterans preference. If you submitted your PMF application w/o this you will not get credit. The PMF application specifically called for it.
ReplyDelete@ 4:57pm My group did really well. We all planned accordingly and knew if someone tried to take too much control that is bad, plus if you were too quiet that was a negative as well. Basically we all spoke evenly and came out of the assessment pretty good friends.
Overall my assessment group did well. Three of us talked pretty evenly and the fourth wasn't far behind. The only downside was that one guy was making off the wall comments and another wouldn't let go of one or two points so we could move on and formulate a final resolution/presentation. Overall I think it was good though. I feel like I participated well and didn't make an idiot of myself.
ReplyDelete@Mar12 9:42
ReplyDeleteThis is the interwebz. Relax and learn to take a joke. I thought it was pretty funny.
@March 12, 10:09 PM
ReplyDeleteThe SF-15 is for disabled veterans. The rest of us had to submit our DD-214.
SF-15 is not a requirement. DD-214, Statement of Disability from the VA for Civil Service consideration, Letter from current unit Commanding Officer, etc. are all accepted.
ReplyDeleteI was really impressed with how well the group exercise went, especially compared to my individual presentation. It was amazing how much better and more refined the proposed group solution was than the solution I offered during the individual presentation. Four brains were definitely better than one.
ReplyDeleteAbout how we interacted, one of the four participants attempted to dominate the conversation at points and seemed dismissive of others' ideas. Other than that person though, the exchange of ideas was very fluid and productive. In general, it seemed like you would be in good shape as long as you were trying to contribute by asking questions, proposing reasonable solutions, and listening to your partners. Anybody else have any ideas about what they were looking for?
Looking at the RFP for the job fair, it says that they are planning on holding the fair over the course of 3 weekdays and that the date may be in late April or early May.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of what they are looking for I would guess that this whole process has been kind of like a big personality test. Since most of the people at my assessment seemed like incredibly likeable and accomplished people, the deciding factor will probably come down to oral communication skills and our ability to perform well under the pressure of the in-person assessment. I don't think that using historical quotes or the type of degrees we have will play a critical role at this stage. I would think that details about our background become important in the next stage of the game.
Here's to hoping we find out sooner rather than later...
@ comment re: SF-15: you are clueless... DD-214 etc. is sufficient... If 5-points was noted on your november email, you have the five points--regardless of whether it was adjudicated or unadjudicated...OPM simply does not have to time to adjudicate every DD-214....
ReplyDelete@ 5:33: Emotional intelligence is a very important skill for leadership positions. I assume you did not accuse anyone of being "clueless" during the group exercise. It is possible to disagree with someone without being accusatory and insulting.
ReplyDeleteHi all,
ReplyDeleteI'm looking for some advice. I know that none of us has heard about whether we're finalists yet, but I'm staying hopeful and trying to make a plan if I become a finalist.
I'm currently working at a Federal Agency as a SCEP, so I have the opportunity to be converted to a permanent position upon graduation. I would like them to offer me a PMF position, but this particular office has never had a PMF.
Here is my question: Has anyone heard of a Federal Agency creating a PMF position for an individual? It seems to me that my Agency won't get any benefit if they hire me as a PMF, instead of a regular permanent position. Would they still have to pay OPM $6,000 to hire me?
I know this question is premature (because we don't know anything yet!) but I might not be the only one in this situation. Any thoughts are welcome.
Best of luck, everyone!
@ March 14, 8:20am
ReplyDeleteYes, per the PMF guidelines, all participating agencies have to pay the fee, no exceptions.
The benefit to your agency is potentially two-fold: may get to hire you at a lower grade than they would have ordinarily. PMF's start at GS-9 or GS-11. In addition, they get you all trained up in terms of leadership management (all the training a PMF has to complete).
On the other hand, there are a few drawbacks. The OPM fee may be cost prohibitive, plus the rotational opportunity, which they essentially will agree that you can be gone from the office for a period of up to 6 months (while paying your salary). And for the training, I believe the agency is on the hook for the costs, though PMF may re-imburse a portion of it.
I'm not aware of an agency that has created a PMF position, but I'm sure it's not a big deal as long as they have the budget are are willing to agree to the terms allowing the PMF to participate in a rotation and the mandatory training.
Kind of shocking that anyone would take a PMF with those requirements and this budget....
ReplyDelete...Anyone have any inside line on agency thinking? I have called a couple HR people to check on whether they will be taking PMFs, but have received no responses. Anybody here know what's up?
ReplyDeleteAccording to the PMF Facebook page, approximately 1400 people completed the in-person assessment. Sounds like there were fewer no-shows than some predicted.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering if agencies are willing to pay the fee etc b/c they have special hiring authority for PMFs. Another words, a particular agency might not have the hiring authority to fill position X through a general application process, but the agency could fill the position through a special PMF hiring authority. This is only a guess.
ReplyDeleteIN OTHER words, not another words.
ReplyDelete@ march 15, 2011 4:22: Thank you for pointing out an error in a post. Do you actually have anything substantive to contribute to the discussion? Or, are you just annoying?
ReplyDeletePerhaps it was the original author correcting the error? Otherwise, why draw more attention to it?
ReplyDeleteHas anyone else noticed the comments have grown mildly bitchy the last week? We really, really need for the PMF program to announce the finalists! Soon!
ReplyDeleteAnd to get back to the discussion, my group exercise was odd because there was only three of us, the topic elicited no real passion (internet advertising) and we all agreed from the first minute. Did anyone else encounter this problem of trying to fill out those 25 minutes? I must have blacked out, because by the end I was presenting our findings with no real memory of how we got there.
@March 14, 2011 4:13 PM: If it was more than 1400 showing up, I think they would have mentioned it. So, if we reasonably assume around 1380 people, it would be a 10% attrition rate, which is probably what most people expected. If they pick a relatively large class, you just have to be in the top 60%. Bon Chance.
ReplyDeleteUpdate from the PMF site today:
ReplyDeleteWe expect to announce the PMF Class of 2011 Finalists by the end of March! The Job Fair will be hosted in Washington, DC and specifics will be posted in the coming days.
Sigh-I wish coming days was just a wee more specific.
On PMF's facebook page: We expect to announce the PMF Class of 2011 Finalists by the end of March!
ReplyDeleteThe Job Fair will take place April 19-21 in Washington, DC. Expect more details and specifics regarding the Job Fair in the coming days.
If they hold true to scheduling the job fair date 3-4 weeks after the finalist announcement (as the PMF website says), that would mean that the announcement will take place sometime March 22-29.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't be surprised if we got announcements tomorrow or early next week. They wouldn't start changing things on the website and making facebook announcement unless they were done. I'm sure the list is finalized now.
ReplyDeleteThings happened similarly when we were waiting for the interview announcements. It was less than 24 hours after they started making website changes that we started receiving emails.
Clearly, I'm also just being hopeful. :)
There was a link on the PMF Facebook website to some article that said that nearly 50% of the federal workforce is eligible to retire in the next 5 years. If Congress decides to dramatically cut government spending, those retirements will be happening sooner than later. They're going to need people to fill those spots.
ReplyDeleteIf Congress decides to dramatically cut government spending, many of those positions could simply disappear.
ReplyDeleteThe job fair is smack in the middle of my finals. As in, I have one on the first day and one on the last. If I don't advance I guess it won't be a problem. Does anyone have a sense of how essential the job fair is? I know a few PMFs and all of them got their jobs through networking, not the fair.
ReplyDeleteI wrote on this topic around this time last year: http://pmfellow.blogspot.com/2010/03/pmf-job-fair-attend-or-skip-plus.html
ReplyDeleteWhether you attend or not is up to you, but there are definite benefits for most finalists.
The PMF Facebook page listed the fair as being April 19-21 as of last night, but then it was removed. So who knows when it will actually be.
ReplyDeleteThe PMF Program Office plays fast and loose with the news. I hesitate to even call it news, what they release. It's more like propaganda, wherein the official story is whatever the latest story is, regardless of what they said yesterday. Unlike this particular medium, which establishes a permanent timeline. I don't go back in time to revise history, because you all deserve better than that.
ReplyDelete/waxing philosophical
@March 15, 2011 6:41 PM
ReplyDeleteWhere did you get the April 19-21 date from? I can't find that on either the Facebook page or the PMF website.
It was posted last night, then deleted.
ReplyDeleteDo we get e-mails telling us if we're finalists before they post the finalist list online?
ReplyDeleteI'd just like to point out that the recent announcement really didn't give us any information. Previously it was "on or around April 1" and now it is before the end of March. April 1 v March 31? Not much difference there.
ReplyDeleteI do think they'll probably announce it earlier though given the website changes. Hopefully it'll happen in the next week or so.
I have to travel out of state for a conference in April and have been waiting on the competition results and knowledge of the job fair dates to purchase my plane ticket. I thought after that facebook post that I could now safely buy the ticket since the conference and the job fair did not overlap. But now they have removed the job fair information. This is frustrating, but I could handle it better if I actually knew whether or not I was a finalist...oh well...
ReplyDeleteOne exciting piece of news is that 90% the SES will be retiring or eligible to retire in the next 5 years or so. As a PMF hopeful I am really intrigued by this. I hope they keep the prestige of the program and continue to make it an arduous journey. I believe those of us that really want to serve in government, and to make an impact in leadership, are willing to overcome hurdles and delays. I plan to dedicate my career to public service so I guess I better get used to this. Cheers to everyone that has made it this far!
ReplyDeletepmfellow: any thoughts of creating a new blog specifically around the job fair?
ReplyDeleteI would imagine they will create a new blog once there is information to actually share.
ReplyDeleteThis is so frustrating. I hope they pick atleast 900 finalist.
ReplyDeleteI just got a blast email from the "PMF Program Office:"
ReplyDeleteWe are presently tabulating all the scores for those semi-finalists who participated in the in-person assessments. Our goal is to select and announce Finalists for the PMF Class of 2011 no later than March 31, 2011. Once Finalists are announced, the PMF website will be updated to reflect all 2011 Finalists and their resumes activated for agency hiring officials to search and review.
The Job Fair webpage (http://www.pmf.gov/become-a-pmf/find-a-job/job-fair.aspx) will soon be updated to include general information and a link for Finalists to RSVP for the PMF Class of 2011 Finalist Job Fair. The Job Fair is expected to take place in Washington, DC, during the week of April 18th. As soon as the venue and dates are final, a “News” bulletin will be posted to the PMF website.
We appreciate your patience. Please continue to monitor the “News” section on the PMF website’s homepage for any updates.
Just got the following email:
ReplyDeleteWe are presently tabulating all the scores for those semi-finalists who participated in the in-person assessments. Our goal is to select and announce Finalists for the PMF Class of 2011 no later than March 31, 2011. Once Finalists are announced, the PMF website will be updated to reflect all 2011 Finalists and their resumes activated for agency hiring officials to search and review.
The Job Fair webpage (http://www.pmf.gov/become-a-pmf/find-a-job/job-fair.aspx) will soon be updated to include general information and a link for Finalists to RSVP for the PMF Class of 2011 Finalist Job Fair. The Job Fair is expected to take place in Washington, DC, during the week of April 18th. As soon as the venue and dates are final, a “News” bulletin will be posted to the PMF website.
We appreciate your patience. Please continue to monitor the “News” section on the PMF website’s homepage for any updates.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGot an e-mail this morning (anyone else get it?). Bullet points:
ReplyDelete-Trying to select by March 31
-Job fair is targeted for week of April 18
Got that too!
ReplyDeleteHere it is:
"We are presently tabulating all the scores for those semi-finalists who participated in the in-person assessments. Our goal is to select and announce Finalists for the PMF Class of 2011 no later than March 31, 2011. Once Finalists are announced, the PMF website will be updated to reflect all 2011 Finalists and their resumes activated for agency hiring officials to search and review.
The Job Fair webpage (http://www.pmf.gov/become-a-pmf/find-a-job/job-fair.aspx) will soon be updated to include general information and a link for Finalists to RSVP for the PMF Class of 2011 Finalist Job Fair. The Job Fair is expected to take place in Washington, DC, during the week of April 18th. As soon as the venue and dates are final, a “News” bulletin will be posted to the PMF website.
We appreciate your patience. Please continue to monitor the “News” section on the PMF website’s homepage for any updates."
I got it too. Doesn't really give any new info. Ugh...stop toying with me like this!
ReplyDeleteFlights are getting pricier by the day. Many hotels are already half way booked and the rest are expensive. They only gave me 10 day notice for my assessment date to fly in from abroad. I hope they can get this done soon so we aren't paying ridiculous prices to attend this thing where only half of us will be lucky enough to get jobs.
ReplyDeleteYou're not kidding about these travel prices. Spending $1000 for this trip might even be on the low side. I can't imagine what it's like for those who will have to make another trip to the capital and shell out that amount a second time.
ReplyDeleteAny ideas as to why it is taking so long to tabulate the results? I get the sense that they could be doing more behind the scenes than just scoring and raking. For example, the final list will have to meet EEOC guidelines. I wonder if they also make sure there is representation from all regions of the US and a variety of schools. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteOPM would not be allowed to selected based on regions and schools unless those criteria were specifically listed in the job announcement or some other official document. I don't think the EEOC guidelines impact the timeframe either.
ReplyDeleteAt first I was thinking about the EEOC guidelines and thought it may not apply, but then recall the Ricci Case (CT firefighters) and the notion of disparate impact regarding employment discrimination. If the exam (or related hiring processes) has a disparate impact on protected groups (gender, ethnicity, religous, disabillity), meaning zero or very few make the finalist list, OPM could run into problems.
ReplyDeleteApparently many years ago, the FSO exam had a disparate impact upon women and there was a class-action suit that resulted in women being retroactively determined to have passed the exam.
So yeah, I'm thinking they're consulting with the lawyers, which invariably takes more time.
The only guidelines it appears that they've had in the past is to select everyone from DC and other East coast schools and completely ignore the rest of the country.
ReplyDeleteHah--actually, I happen to know that they take at least a few from a few West Coast programs every year. Moreover, in speaking with some of the PMF reps, I think they've recognized how the program has been rather limited to certain schools (primarily East Coast Ivies and near-Ivies) and to certain programs (public affairs, law &c), and they're working to expand it to a wider group of people.
ReplyDelete